Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 1062 Location: Well dang, I was here a minute ago...
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:57 am Post subject:
FWIW, I don't care for the nudity ads either. SJ gets flack about characters going around without pants, but SJ doesn't have any "naughty bits" either. I don't really want to be confronted with a big ol' nipple and/or labial cleft while I'm trying to read the message boards.
-TG _________________ --
http://www.suburbanjungle.com -- The life, loves, and career of aspiring supermodel and ferocious predator, Tiffany Tiger
http://www.mopsy.com -- NeverNever, the story of the faeries at war with humanity, and of the humans who just don't notice
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 262 Location: In a Digital World
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:31 am Post subject:
reinder wrote:
Because you are the only one who knows what does and does not offend you? Because if Joey has to second-guess what is and isn't offensive on your behalf, he'll have to do it on behalf of the next person, who might, for example, be offended by anything anthropomorphic?
By the way: I have not seen any pornography in any of the ads. That says something about my own standards, but that you see it in ads that I think are merely somewhat provocative, and in many cases quite pretty to look at, likewise says something about yours. There are probably things that offend me - I wouldn't want to look at gore or fundamentalist propaganda in ads. What I would want least of all, though, is for my publisher to go insane juggling the tastes and sensibilities of a hundred thousand people.
There is a commonly accepted set of standards used to determine the rating of movies, TV shows and video games. Are you suggesting you don't know what criteria is used to distinguish a PG movie from a rated R movie?
Reinder is suggesting that if we go down that road, we will not be able to limit our filtering merely to banners.
There is an army of full-time employees who work for the MPAA, the television networks, and the FCC, whose job is to determine what is and what isn't acceptable for those venues.
The web doesn't have such an army. I don't have such an army.
Further -- if we claim to filter, and claim to be work-friendly, and if one objectionable item comes down the pike, legally, we're potentially legally responsible for civil damages if someone loses his/her job because of this site. If we do not claim to filter, and do not claim to be work-friendly, we are not.
We do not claim to be work-friendly. We do not claim to filter. Use these forums at your own risk. Block the ads if you don't like them. Use another forum site if you don't like this one (we honestly would hate to see you go, but can't help you if this issue is a deal-breaker for you). The power is in your hands.
Because you are the only one who knows what does and does not offend you? Because if Joey has to second-guess what is and isn't offensive on your behalf, he'll have to do it on behalf of the next person, who might, for example, be offended by anything anthropomorphic?
By the way: I have not seen any pornography in any of the ads. That says something about my own standards, but that you see it in ads that I think are merely somewhat provocative, and in many cases quite pretty to look at, likewise says something about yours. There are probably things that offend me - I wouldn't want to look at gore or fundamentalist propaganda in ads. What I would want least of all, though, is for my publisher to go insane juggling the tastes and sensibilities of a hundred thousand people.
There is a commonly accepted set of standards used to determine the rating of movies, TV shows and video games. Are you suggesting you don't know what criteria is used to distinguish a PG movie from a rated R movie?
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 2365 Location: Southern Indiana
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:51 am Post subject:
If I may weigh in in my own defence....
Yeah, I'd appreciate taming down the ads. I never know when My Daughter will come sneaking up behind me. (And if our illustrious forum owner is one of the only two people in furry fandom NOT to know the story, click here.
While I haven't been looking for anything naughty in the ads, I have seen a couple of things that have prompted me to scroll downwards quickly. I'm not a prude (nor do I play one on TV), but I agree with several of the above posters: This is a PG site I am visiting, and I expect ALL the content to be PG rated.
I may even go the route of turning the ads off completely. Even the "clean", PG rated ones have caused more than one eyebrow to be raised at home. That's my problem, of course, not yours (although I'm sure many of us live with Mundanes and Muggles).
BTW: Regarding viewing comics at work: I agree with Joey to some extent. Big Brother is watching, especially if you work off a server. But then again...I have had legitimate business-related reasons to view some of these forums (no, I'm not a cartoonist, nor do I play one on TV). I am, however, a horticulturist, and have researched various issues for forum members (including genetically modified organisms, carbon sequestration, pesticide usage, and how to grow nectarines), so replying on this forum is something I can justify to Big Brother, if the issue ever came up. Having a nekkid woman (let alone a furry) popping up on my screen is much more difficult to explain....
As was said earlier: y'all own the sandbox, and y'all can make the rules. If I truly am offended, I can just stop visiting this forum, or just shut off the ads. But if I have to shut off ads to avoid embarassing my family (and putting me in the difficult position of explaining myself to my teenaged daughter), then all of your customers who advertise on the site, hoping that I might check out their work, will never get the opportunity to entice me.
'Nuff said. _________________ Hortmage, the Magic Gardener
Making Environmental Education Fun and Magical!
The joys of providing a free service. You have my sympathies, Joey.
I had never thought about the legal implications, that you mentioned, when it comes to filtering.
What has set all of this off is, that to my memory the style of advertisments used to be different and, I think, has now taken a turn towards nuditiy - I have never paid enough attention to the ads to make this an assertion. I participate in the 21st Century Fox, Cross Time Cafe, Magpie House Design and related fora, all of which are PG, I think. This acutely shapes my view on what to expect on TAC-ads. Obviously, I had been mistaken and that is my own fault entirely.
So thank you, Joey, for the good service you are delivering to us. _________________ TAC registration help squad. Just drop me a line here. How-to: Killfile
In the past, the cartoonists had to send their banners to me, then I would upload them into the ad banner server. I never made any statements about acceptable content, but just the fact that they had to send them to me first probably caused them to be a little more timid.
I've been working hard on automating as much of my business as possible. One of my automation projects was/is the banner server, Open Ad Network (which will be available, not just for my sites, but for any site wanting to sell or swap banners -- sneak non-working preview at http://www.openadnetwork.com/ ).
That server does allow for the filtering of ads based on whether they have nudity in them or not. I haven't actually completed that feature, but it's a fairly easy one to implement (though it does depend on the honesty of the person uploading the banner, to click the little checkbox beside "this banner contains nudity").
The nudity banners -- particularly the one that pushes the envelope the hardest, Mikael's "Dominant Damsels" banner -- have had phenomenal success in terms of attracting clickthroughs from this site. It's just outrageous, how much more popular those banners are. I can only conclude that there are a lot of people using TAC who like them, especially given the small number of complaints relative to the large number of TAC registered users and the even larger number of TAC guests (many of those in that last category, admittedly, are probably santy worm bots who have no opinions either way, I guess).
If there were more banners as provocative as "Dominant Damsels," (and, really, that's the only one that has given me the slightest bit of pause, though ultimately I decided it was fine), I'd drop a note to the cartoonists and ask them to chill a little bit.
Meanwhile, the fact that you can block the banners if you want is our best line of defense. We don't want this forum to be as "safe" as a network television show. We want it to be an open discourse among people who are willing to say, and show, whatever they want, as long as it is on-topic. The banners may be many things, but they are definitely on-topic.
I do respect that, by hosting forums for sites outside my own network of websites, there is bound to be a bit of culture clash. We appreciate your presence on our site, and do encourage you to block the ads if they bug you. But the primary purpose of TAC is to serve the Modern Tales community, and to entice others from outside the MT community to join Modern Tales eventually (just by hanging out and learning who we are, and getting to know us). For that reason, the general vibe may clash a bit with the vibe within your own subculture. Can't be avoided, I'm afraid, though we can all be friendly about it and discuss these issues when they come up.
More than anything, I appreciate the maturity exhibited by those complaining about the banners, especially once you saw my responses. This did not turn into an ugly flamewar, just a difference of opinion, and that, ultimately, is what I'm proudest of about the TAC community as a whole. Thanks.
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 262 Location: In a Digital World
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:25 pm Post subject:
I didn't really want to say something earlier because I really thought the adds were their source of revenue and as they say "sex sells." Before it got to this I was wondering if Talk About Comics offered add-free service for a reasonable price to which I would be more than willing to contribute. Now I know that is not the case.
I didn't really want to say something earlier because I really thought the adds were their source of revenue and as they say "sex sells." Before it got to this I was wondering if Talk About Comics offered add-free service for a reasonable price to which I would be more than willing to contribute. Now I know that is not the case.
ad for "Flick - Dominant Damsels" (given image and title, I would expect X-rated material)
This was the side advert when I first opened this thread. Spooky or what? _________________ All cats are grey in the dark: except Schroedinger's Cat, but that's neither here nor there.
I had been searching for 'Flick' on TAC before my first posting and came across a post by mikael oskarsson, the author of 'Flick', on his forum
Quote:
Speaking about the 'nudie' banner... it made a rapid climb to the top of the internal GS stats page. It's got a click-through rate of 10%, way higher than any other banner Very Happy I'll think I hang on to it a little while longer.
10% click-through? Wow! It seems to be outperforming any other ad.
So it is more than understandable, he likes to keep it, even more so, if his community is non-PG, as I presume. If I were him, I would probably do it. _________________ TAC registration help squad. Just drop me a line here. How-to: Killfile
You have no idea how much I appreciate Talk About Comics and the 21st Century Fox forum here. Since this forum is one of the higher traffic forums on the server, I *REALLY* appreciate being able to run it here!
I'm afraid I didn't particularly find the ads offensive. To tell the truth, I don't think I noticed them until folks pointed them out.
From a business point of view, all I can do is make one suggestion:
A lot of eyes end up looking at the 21st Century Fox Forum. They see the ads here. This is a part of the audience you and the cartoonists running banners are targeting. The more they like the ads, the more likely they are to click on them, and the more likely you are to get more business.
I only suggest that you take this as feedback on your ads.
Now, maybe lots of folks like the ads, and maybe this is the only group that had any objections.
I sure wouldn't want to have to try to police what's acceptable in a banner or not. You don't either, and that's certainly sensible. What I would suggest is that you might consider passing the feedback to the comic artists themselves. Not in a confrontational way as in "We Can't Run Stuff Like This!!" but in a, "You missed your target audience with this ad. You may want to think about it some more for the next one."
Constructive critiques are usually welcome! A lot of folks don't know the best way to promote their strips. Of course it all depends on the individual. Some artists are touchy. Me, I'm pretty easy going.
Perhaps someone could point them to this thread. That way they can hear the feedback straight from the horse's mouth. Nobody's screaming, nobody's calling for censorship. But I just gotta say that feedback can really help sometimes.
Thanks!
Scott _________________ Scott & Kathy Kellogg
21st Century Fox: The Future's so bright, you gotta wear shades... http://techfox.keenspace.com
Magpie House Design: Meeting all your needs for Magpie Comics since 2004!
http://www.hirezfox.com/km/
Joined: 14 Nov 2003 Posts: 11031 Location: Somewhere between here and there
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject:
I was actually a little surprised that nudie pictures started appearing within the last month. It seemed like someone just decided to get more risque with what gets put up, and it was a bit of a surprise.
I use public access computers and I can't get into "Deviant Art," but then I get these full-frontals popping up in this Forum. I know it's not specific to this Forum, but if I go and recommend this site to a friend, and they see these ads, they may get the wrong impression.
The best suggestion I can give is to tell the advertisers "Hey! Enough with the blatant titillation! Give us PG or PG-13 pictures, please."
I'm otherwised very pleased with the serive TAC provides. Some of the artwork in the ads is gorgeous, and I'd hate to "ban" anyone...but it's obvious that the only reason an artist chooses such an image is for the shock value. _________________ Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.
Joined: 27 Jun 2004 Posts: 932 Location: The Cedar Mountains of North Texas
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:52 pm Post subject:
kellogg wrote:
From a business point of view, all I can do is make one suggestion:
A lot of eyes end up looking at the 21st Century Fox Forum. They see the ads here. This is a part of the audience you and the cartoonists running banners are targeting. The more they like the ads, the more likely they are to click on them, and the more likely you are to get more business.
I only suggest that you take this as feedback on your ads.
Now, maybe lots of folks like the ads, and maybe this is the only group that had any objections.
I sure wouldn't want to have to try to police what's acceptable in a banner or not. You don't either, and that's certainly sensible. What I would suggest is that you might consider passing the feedback to the comic artists themselves. Not in a confrontational way as in "We Can't Run Stuff Like This!!" but in a, "You missed your target audience with this ad. You may want to think about it some more for the next one."
Constructive critiques are usually welcome! A lot of folks don't know the best way to promote their strips. Of course it all depends on the individual. Some artists are touchy. Me, I'm pretty easy going.
Perhaps someone could point them to this thread. That way they can hear the feedback straight from the horse's mouth. Nobody's screaming, nobody's calling for censorship. But I just gotta say that feedback can really help sometimes.
Jeanette gives Scott a gold star for his brilliant display of diplomacy.
Joined: 27 Jan 2005 Posts: 262 Location: In a Digital World
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:01 pm Post subject:
Nightstar wrote:
Some of the artwork in the ads is gorgeous, and I'd hate to "ban" anyone...but it's obvious that the only reason an artist chooses such an image is for the shock value.
Yeah, I hate the fact that I had to block all of the ads. Some of them were cute. Oh well, at least I can change it back if things change.
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 3093 Location: Land of the webbed feet
Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:41 pm Post subject:
I am viewing the forum from work, with my employer's permission, but I have to avoid nudity and sexual-connotation items, so the frontal-nudity ads are a problem for me too.
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You have my sympathies, Joey.
Some of them were cute. Oh well, at least I can change it back if things change.
